JR: Well, yeah, but that wasn't the gig that let me know we'd arrived. When I said that anybody that was anybody was there- it wasn't that it was anyone- they weren't ANYBODY then - it's just that they were our friends. Nobody was, like, famous or anything. It was...just...LOVE! It didn't let us know that we'd arrived, because we hadn't. But I didn't care about arriving, what I cared about was that that was one of my favorite experiences I'd ever had in my life. It was true then, it's still true. That's all that was. There was a gig later at Sandy's in 1973...actually it was almost the Spring of 1974, which we'd finally ARRIVED. And I didn't like it. 'Cuz noone was listening, they just wanted to hear "Road Runner". The place was full, and I said "Damn it, I guess we've arrived" (laughs).

JH: If they were hearing "Road Runner"...it wasn't released yet, so....

JR: They heard it on BCN.

JH: You put out a local tape?

JR: Mmmm, probably... I forget.

JH: At one point back in the early 80's you told me you were looking for a new manager, you suggested I give it a shot, and I tried it to see what it'd be like to manage you for a few weeks- remember that? During that short time I got a few shows lined up, and set up an interview with New York Rocker- all of which you declined. You passed on NY Rocker because they had misquoted you and distorted some of your comments in a past interview, and you were upset that they had "lied", which surprised me because I think of that sort of "creative editing"- also known as lying -as synonymous with journalism! And you didn't want the gigs because you didn't want to play any rock clubs at the time. So the managing thing didn't quite get off the ground- I was perplexed! To me all clubs worth playing in were rock clubs. I remember, though, that as the Modern Lovers became more of a rock legend there was a move by the local press to claim them as their own, and an inference within those circles that the Modern Lovers were part of the whole scene documented on the Live at the Rat album. I think you may have been asked to play some anniversary show at the Rat, and you laughed about that because you'd never played at the Rat, had never wanted to back in the early days of the Lovers, and hadn't really felt part of that whole scene at all.

JR: The Modern Lovers never played at the Rat, that's correct.

JH: You told me a really funny story about going up to Sir Morgan's Cove in Worcester to do a gig, and the pay was like three hundred fifty bucks- big, big money to a struggling band in the early 70's. But when you got there and saw the crowd you cancelled the show. I got the impression the band was upset about that sort of thing: "pain-in-the-ass Jonathan and his pain-in-the-ass principles". Was that part of not playing anyplace but where you felt you truly belonged?

JR: In fact that goes back to that great Stone Phoenix show I told you about before. What happened was the guy saw us at the Stone Phoenix. He saw people applaud like wild at the end of the night, 'cuz we did "Road Runner". He didn't know his music, he figured that must have been a hit song! He didn't realize he was booking an original material band. We show up at Sir Morgan's Cove, the audience wants to hear stuff like "Stairway to Heaven", or something- mmm, or what would they want to hear in 1972? They would have wanted to hear... like, Sly and the Family Stone, Jimi Hendrix, Cream...and "Badge" and stuff like that, right? NO! So the audience is there and they want to hear wild guitar solos and smoke angel dust to it. So we don't know any good angel dust songs, so we just do the stuff we know. And they're not buying it a bit! And they don't think "96 Tears" is anything so great, then most of the songs we did by other people- we might have done "Jumpin Jack Flash" and "Brown Sugar" -but our sound was so thin. So anyway they're not going for it, and I tell the owner "You know what this is just a mistake, do you see it"? And he says "Yeah". And I say "You don't have to pay us for the rest of the night, I just want to get out of here".

JH: It seemed that here was a point around then that you felt you needed to be able to make certain decisions unfettered by bandmates- not just administrative decisions but musical decisions. Like some nights you wanted to sing and not have a band playing and that was getting tougher to do with a band behind you. You told me once that when you have a bass player who's dragged his refrigerator-sized Sunn Coliseum amp to the show, and the drummer's brought his ton of stuff, they expect to play them, not just sit there while you sing a song a capella or whatever, so it's restrictive....

JR: No-no. No-no. No....no. That was just a case of my not wanting to play where we weren't wanted.

JH: I guess I mean not just in reference to that particular gig: what would you say led to your not wanting to be with that version of the Modern Lovers anymore?

JR: We just stopped seeing eye-to-eye.

JH: And what would you say led to not wanting any version of a full band anymore? You didn't seem eager to pursue a full band after the Asa, Leroy and Dee Sharpe band ended. Did you feel it was better to get out there on your own, without a band?

JR: Well, Dee Sharpe quit to play with a jazz band.

JH: Carla Bley, right?

JR: Yeah. I dunno, it just seemed like the time to play alone. It just seemed like that.

JH: I've seen you go through a number of totally different ensembles, and I've seen you play just about everything at one point or another onstage- although always coming back to guitar. Is that one of the perks of being able to be the master of your own ship? The bands you've had around you- anywhere from one, two, three, four, five people - you've also done a lot of different kinds of records, and I wonder is this something you see yourself always doing? Or do you see yourself settling into a single band or with a single lineup- like with Tommy?

JR: Me and Tommy (Larkins) have played the last three or four hundred shows together.

JH: Tommy is great, he's a find- a perfect "band" for you. Where'd he come from?

JR: Thanks. Tucson, Arizona.

JH: Did you meet Tommy at a show, or how'd you hook up with him?

JR: Yeah,I was passing through town and I needed a drummer. Friends of mine recommended him. So it worked out so good that I kept on working with him.

JH: Has Tommy played in any other bands I might know of?

JR: Oh, yeah, Naked Prey, he played on Green on Red, he played in a lot of bands.

JH: Do you have a favorite band you've used? Any favorite version of any of those ensembles? Obviously this one seems to have held together longer than any of the others.

JR: (sounding surprised) Y'know, that's already true isn't it? I never even thought of that...hell, I didn't realize...

JH: Tommy's a veteran! Michael Cardabaccio made his reappearances, certainly Ned Claflin, who was with you for a short time along with Brennan Totten, then returned for a few other tours- we had pizza once near my house in East Boston, at Santarpio's, when I picked you up from the airport and he "diagnosed" my vocal range as I sang to the jukebox. He was with you in LA when I saw you at the Roxy, too, I think.

JR: Curly Carrenan, too, he's been back again since the old days.

JH: Do you have a favorite song that you've written?

JR: Mmmm, I don't know- sometimes, but not enough to say right now.

JH: Watching the live shows, not to put words in your mouth, but it seems like the ones you're enjoying performing the most are the ones you're performing at the moment.

JR: That's for sure.

JH: So record companies. Did Warner do the original set of tapes?

JR: Yeah.

JH: OK and then Warner shelved them, and Beserkely bought them?

JR: Yeah.

JH: So you were on Beserkely for a while, and then Rounder?

JR: Rough Trade, and then Rounder.

JH: And then Vapor. You seem pretty happy with Vapor.

JR: They're great.

JH: Seems to me coming from you that's a pretty big compliment.

JR: Yeah, they're good.

JH: Do you find that they're less interferent in terms of your career...

JR: Oh, yeah, I never had any interference. But anyway everyone's the master of their own ship, why not. It ain't just...like, anyone can do that. All you gotta do is just do what you want.

JH: I guess that's true, most musician's bitch about record companies- they did this and they did that, but really what's happened is that they've just given the company an open ticket- "wow, you're a record company, do it for me".

JR: Yeah, and with bands it's the same thing, you said "well, do you find that being the master of your own ship, that's one of the good things"- but you can do it too! Just...do what you want to do!

JH: I know one of the things you liked a lot about Rounder was that they weren't really promoting- no, marketing you- so the less of that stuff that gets done the less chance there is of an "artificial Jonathan" being out there...

JR: (laughs) Yeah.

AT THIS POINT, MY FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE JONATHAN'S MONOSYLLABIC ANSWERS TO RECORD COMPANY QUESTIONS AS INDICATIVE OF HIS OBVIOUS RELUCTANCE TO TALK ABOUT "MUSIC BIZ" LEADS HIM TO CALL A TIME OUT. AFTER A DULY CHASTENED JOE HARVARD IS EDUCATED IN THE FACT THAT TALKING ABOUT MUSIC BUSINESS IS ABOUT AS ENJOYABLE AS "TALKING ABOUT TAXES", WE MOVE ON TO "MORE EXCITING SHIT".

JH: When I went over to England in '79 and '80 I was surprised to see how visible you were there. There were Jonathan buttons and the Modern Lovers records were more readily available than in Boston even. Was going over to Europe a gas for you? I know even now your records tend to sell fairly well in Northern Europe and places like that...you go to Europe every year don't you?

JR: Not lately, I haven't been over in the past year or so. But in Europe, my favorite place is Spain, and Greece...Italy. France...been going over there since '76- took Asa there, he was over there with us in September of '76. The best gigs aren't necessarily the biggest, it isn't necessarily how big a deal the show is, it all depends on who shows up. So, the excitement isn't when there's 3500 people in the Hammersmith Odeon, necessarily, the excitement is when whoever shows up is really on your wavelength.

JH: In a way European audiences, especially Spanish audiences and stuff like that, does it seem there's an immediacy there? Does it seem to you that they may come in with less preconceptions about what a "Jonathan Richman" is, so it's a little easier to get through?

JR: I don't know - I think- it's just something about Spain. I really don't know 'cuz I don't know if they had preconceptions or not, 'cuz...they might have (laughs).

JH: (laughing right along, realizing how dumb the question was) But they were Spanish preconceptions...

JR: Yeah, they were just a different kind.

JH: ...that'd be preconceptiones!

JR:Yes.

JH: Going back about five years, for a while you were purposely throwing unexpected bands into opening slots. We had had discussions around that time, where you were saying you felt that people were coming in and it was getting sort of stale, too even, and you wanted to kind of shake things up. You said that the best kind of a band at that point of time would have been a big, loud, funk band.

JR: That wasn't just to shake things up, it's just because- I think it's just a good opening act. I just think it's good to have... I just think it's good for... what do you call it...?

JH: Variety?

JR: Well...like in Los Angeles several years ago there was this big review, a rhythm and blues act, with a lot of keyboards and horns and everything, and I thought "Whoa, what a great opening act". It wasn't just to intentionally do it...I just thought it was the kind of thing I'd like to see open for us.

JH: Most of your shows are headlining. Have you played many shows where you weren't the main act?

JR: We played a few pop festivals in England where we were in the middle of the bill there.

JH: When I was living in Columbus, Ohio at one point you came through, and my band opened for you at Stache's. I was surprised while dicussing the upcoming show when Eric Armstrong, my bass player, told me you were into Primus, he said he'd seen a West Coast show you guys were both on and you were real friendly with the band. I was skeptical. So I asked and you said that you really dug the bass player from Primus, not necessarily the band itself but the bass player in particular because he was so great to watch, he was very skilled and had a real love for the instrument. Are there any musicians or bands that you like in particular now?

JR: Yeah, first of all I think Evan Dando is a great singer. I been getting into Cuban music since we made the movie in Miami. Um, let me think, Joe, cuz I know, there were some things that I thought were just terrific- I just can't remember right this minute. Let's come back to it later (ED. NOTE: we don't come back to it later) because I might have some more ideas.

JH: A few months ago I mentioned that I was working on music for Monumental, a film by Nick Smith and Mary Fitzgerald. We spoke about writing for films and you seemed doubtful that you could or wanted to do that. For the movie (Something About Mary) you've just written the first of your songs that didn't float up spontaneously but were written towards a goal- would that be true?

JR: Sort of and sort of not. See when I read the script I didn't know what would happen. Um, the director first thought we would just use older songs of mine to narrate the movie. But I read the script and I said "I've got it"! So in a way it was written to order, but in another way...

JH: ...it was spontaneous!

JR: I just called him up and said "do you know what your movie needs- a theme song". Cuz I'd just read the script and I said that's what this movie needs, and he said "yeah?" and I said "yeah". And I just played it, I said "here, do you want to hear it?"

JH: How's that working out? Are you enjoying it? I know they have to re-shoot a lot of stuff over and over so are you spending a little bit of time before the camera these days?

JR: Well, then I did, 'cuz we appeared several times throughout the picture. That was great fun, too.

JH: Who is directing the film?

JR: There's two of them, the Farrelly brothers, Bobby and Peter.

JH: And they directed Kingpin, too, both of them?

JR: Yeah, and Dumb and Dumber.

JH: I had my mom go out and rent Kingpin, she was very proud of you.

JR: Awww....

JH: I know that these films are usually highly compartmentalized, with different shooting schedules for everyone. Did you get to meet and hang at all with Matt (Dillon) and Cameron (Dias)?

JR: Yeah. Yeah.

JH: Are they nice enough?

JR: Yeah. Yeah, they're both really nice.

JH: God, she's such a fox.

JR:(adroitly sidestepping my sexist comment) We got to hang out. Whattayacallit...Ben Stiller's great too, Chris Elliot, and Lee Evans- they're all good. And a woman named Lynn who acts in this picture is really great too. Yeah, we got to hang.

JH: So now you're finished with that?

JR: Yes.

JH: You sent me a postcard from NY and then we spoke on the phone, and you sounded very excited about the new album, produced by Ric (Ocasek, formerly of the Cars). Now that the new album is done, how do you feel about it?

JR: I really respect Ric (Ocasek) now as a producer. I think he did really good with us. And I like him. His wife is also just great, real smart, too, very nice...strong...we had some great conversations.

JH: Had you known him before this project?

JR: Oh, yeah. Way back....you remember I told you about that show back in '72 where all those people were there- he was there that night, too.

JH: That's when he was in Captain Beyond...no...er, Captain Swing?

JR: No. Way before that. No, you see that they'd just invented...you remember the paddlewheel right? Well. Boston was actually rejoicing because now they could have, like, remember when they switched from direct current to alternating current and that was a big hit. That Thomas Edison fellow he got all the credit but actually it was Nicola Tessi and, they had just had that big exposition in Chicago that year...

JH: I know, I'm sorry...it's embarrassing for me- I know that you, not only as a performer but also as a person, live in the day, you have a tremendously healthy sense of "Look I'm here right now so I'm living right now" and I like that, and there are things about that that I try to emulate. But since the website that I'm working on is basically about the history of Boston rock, I apologize for having to ask these questions about ancient history. There are enough people that are interested in this stuff that any little tidbit is of genuine interest, though....and it's meant to be a tribute to some of the men and women who've impressed me and made a difference in my life.

JR: Yeah. Well, you know I'm not crazy about...I don't like things like computers, or like cable TV or some things, and...'cuz they keep people from talking, from getting out, they isolate folks from each other. In spite of all the stuff you've told me about the positive side of this stuff, I don't think I'm sure that I like the Web. I'm not doing this because it's for a website, I'm doing this interview in spite of it, because it's Joe Harvard. If it wasn't you this wouldn't be happening.

JH: (blushing) Thanks, Jonathan. On that flattering note, your phone bill is probably getting way out of hand, so I'll let you go. Talk to you soon.

JR: See ya.